Video Games "The Greatest Teaching Tool Ever Invented" Says Man Who Tried To Ban GTA

@Sketcz Yeah there is definitely a lot of truth to that. In the old days it was largely a bunch of conservative outsiders outraged at what they were being told about video games. Now a days all the censorship seems to be coming from people on the opposite side who have made their way into the industry. Back in the days of Jack Thompson, it was a lot easier to keep the puritans and censorship away. Now, it's like fighting against people who should be on your side.

@JayJ Horeshoe Theory

I will admit though, I always saw some truth to Thompson's theory back in the day, but that it wasn't universal and was more correlation than causation. A child who played excessivly violent games was more likely to come from a violent household. It wasn't GTA tha led to torturing bugs and plans to burn down the school, but the other way around. Perhaps I too have simply become more apologetic with age, especially when today's political climate has swung so far the other way, but Thompson argueing for more measures to keep violent games out of kids hands seems almost noble in a climate where devs are told to make the inoffensive stuff possible to sell micro-transactions, appease some nebulous ethics board, and then get laid off to meet growth metrics to pad the bonuses of said ethics board.

@Sketcz One of the biggest changes I have taken note of is how the gaming community reacted towards people like Jack Thompson vs how they react towards people trying to fight the censors today. Back in the days of Thompson, it seemed like the entire gaming community was united against him. Nobody liked what he was saying or trying to do and they all fought against him and his attempts to influence video games. Now a days it seems like half the gaming community is in cahoots with the censors and fighting for them, and that is especially bad when you look at the present state of the journalism and big gaming media where the people fighting for the censors seem to greatly outnumber and demonize those trying to fight against them. This has allowed the latest form of puritanism to influence video games and flourish in the industry, with those trying to fight it being largely stifled and silenced. It's no wonder there is so much discontent among gamers these days.

@Zeebor15 True, corruption has become rampant with the changes in the industry and fears have shifted to different concerns. I always thought of Jack Thompson's crusade as having been misguided, but noble in intent. He simply fell upon the classic case of confusing correlation with causation. People trying to deal with violence in their lives or violent thoughts would be naturally drawn to violent media and video games being interactive has always provided a consequence free environment to exercise and vent their troubles. If anything video games provided a relief to people, which is something we have a far better understanding of today. I think the biggest issue with people like Thompson and their beliefs has always been their position as outsiders. Their lack of experience and knowledge when it came to video games generated beliefs guided by desperation and founded on fear. It is easy for people to fear what they do not understand, and the more desperate people get the more likely they are to make emotional and illogical conclusions. I feel like their desperation was a development of their desire to find a way to control a world they couldn't understand. I think that's why I have been so disappointed by industry insiders falling into this kind of behavior, I felt like they really should have known better.

Character development 😃

@Sketcz Yeah I agree, back then I even think people that want to censor games has good intentions, they just don't understand games and want the best for their children, since they still think games are for children. And they follow the law, when the law said they can't censor videogame, well, they give up since it's the law afterall.

Now people that want to censor games are doing it because "moral" reason, they don't want revealing clothes for woman in videogames for example and yet they have no problem with real woman with revealing clothes in twitch (a streaming service for all ages), they don't have problem with baldur gate 3 bear scene and yet scream at titles like stellar blade, rather than follow the law, they goes straight to western developers demanding to censor the games. They have no moral at all.

That quote is idiotic and show's that he never actually had any idea what he's talking about. I'm not going to dive too deep into it, but at a baseline, his thesis seems to be "video games are a great teaching tool because they now have graphics good enough to be realistic". The sort of elitist drivel that made people think comics were a low form of entertainment for decades. Then of course referencing a biopic as any sort of real world proof is a sign of a blow hard if there ever was one, especially when someone who crusades against violence in video games is misguidedly championing nuclear power, as some sort of offhand blindly optimistic remark. This sort of fake feel good idealism makes me way more sick to my stomach than anything in GTA, and I'm pro (self) censorship. This guy's a tool.

It's funny how it didn't take most people decades to figure out that it's not the technology that's the problem but how it's used.

The funny thing about Jack’s take on GTAIII is that it’s the player who runs over hookers or shoots a load of civilians, the game doesn’t make you do any of that.

Heck, if you find all the missions so objectionable you don’t have to do any of them, you can just explore the first island in peace. You won’t get very far in the game, but it’s 100% the player’s choice to participate. Plus it’s not like killing innocents isn’t consequence free, the police do come after you.

Video games ate my grandma.

@Sketcz Most of Jack Thompson's opinions against video games went towards violence in general. This being a few years following the Columbine High School shooting, the "war on video games" was reignited since the creation of the ESRB rating here in America in the early 90s. And Rockstar being the forefront from breaking boundaries on how violent a video game could be.

It was easier to blame the video game industry and gaming community when it was looked down on to play video games, instead of the parents caving into their child's demand to play a game targeted to those 17 years of age and older. That made it so easy to be against Jack since he clearly never played video games and exaggerated claims of what you could do in the games based on screenshots, leading to his reputation collapsing and no longer being taken seriously by the public.

It's interesting that you note censorship getting worse, could you provide more examples of what was being censored? I see a mix of great progress in gaming, in particular, there's more than two body-type tropes for male and female characters, more ethnic appropriate hairstyles, that allows developers to be more creative in character design and not boxed in. Whilst the first questionable example I can think of was the lens-flare effect in PlayStation's DMC5. Do you also consider the new disclaimers in older games a part of censorship?

@InsaneWade A lot of censorship happens at the pitch and preproduction level. Many of the games "censored" will never be announced, let alone released.

You mention Rockstar. Manhunt 3 was in pre-production when snubbed to avoid offense. Stakeholders of public companies tend to steer clear of controversy - especially since many have no interest in the games industry, only quarterly returns. They seldom see the outrage for what it is - cultivated, and unlikely to meaningfully effect sales.

Personally, I cannot fathom how subjecting creatives to fear and trepidation does anything other than undermine creativity. Maybe there's a reason we live in an age of annual franchise instalments and endless reboots - always adjusted for "modern audiences" as if the popularity of said titles wasn't the basis for the reboot being greenlit.

@Sketcz As someone who's frequented and consistently enjoyed HCG101 over the years, I'd just like to say thanks. Do you still write for any online sites, or focus solely on published works?

I can’t understand how we have to go any further than ‘if you don’t like it, don’t buy it’ for any form of game, music or film. I would extend that to ‘if you don’t like it, don’t buy it for your kids; it’s your responsibility to gate keep what they are consuming until they are old enough to make their own mistakes’.

As for ‘content warnings’ before I start my game they are actually nothing new. Every Resident Evil game used to begin with one ‘This game contains scenes of explicit violence and gore’ to which I always thought the same thing: ‘’That’s why I’m here!’’

@Impossibilium Are you actually implying that one of the writers on this site is promoting eugenics because he used a phrase about about poison in blood? Is everything alright at home?

The saga of him vs video games covered by the HotSpot was podcast gold in 2005/06

Jack Thomson - there's a blast from the past. Remember reading about his diatribes in GamesTM back in the day (great magazine in its prime). Silly man.

@Impossibilium @Sketcz Ludicrous comparisons to Hitler on the internet are not a matter of if, but when unfortunately.

Sure now that there is no money in the video game equivalent of ambulance chasing.

That being said media doesn’t exist in a vacuum and we should be mindful of what we consume as it does have an effect.

@Sketcz I have to apologize. I follow American politics more than I should — especially since I’m Canadian — and reading the rest of your comments in this thread, we seem to be mostly on the same side when it comes to most of our views on censorship. But reading your initial comment, you sounded very much like a far-right conspiracy theorist, and complaining that the “woke mob” is infiltrating our favourite game companies. The phrasing near the end of the comment “triggered” me — as they like to say — and made me think you were sending out some Gamergate dog-whistle or something.

Since I don’t know you personally, and it doesn’t matter in the long run, I’ll accept you at your word that you didn’t know the origins of the phrases that you used, and I’m sorry if it seemed that I was calling you — or other commenters — Nazis, or anything similar.

I want to continue the discussion of what constitutes censorship or not, but I have too many thoughts with not a lot of space to do it, so I’ll leave it at that. I’ll try to go back to my new policy of not commenting on controversial topics in the comments section of a video game website.

Sorry, and peace out ✌️

@JeongersGaming I don’t think they were ludicrous in this case (he admitted that it sounded like that afterwards), but yes, I was dumb, and I apologize.

@Poodlestargenerica I didn’t know who he was, but that’s no excuse, so I’m sorry (and I think I’m okay? I do wonder sometimes… 😣)

@Sketcz As a new arrival, that's great to hear - I'll be working my way through the backlog of articles for some time. The books in the pipeline - will they be affiliated with HCG or should I be keeping an eye elsewhere?

As for the state of the industry, I'm cautiously optimistic that the shuttering of many of the more vitriolic/outrage driven outlets combined with shifting consumer sentiment might just spell a return to simpler times. You know, when developers, the gaming press and players where united in their appreciation of the medium, behind a single concern - the quality of the experience.

Maybe a touch optimistic, but as someone who was lucky enough to be involved in development at the tail end of the golden age, I can but hope.

@Sketcz Those are interesting points you brought up, I agree with that there are moments were the choice to censor is... extremely questionable. Often "censorship" is thrown about these days for minor details I've noticed. Not including, but also prominently used over if one could still salivate over a character's body. It's unfortunate that there's a divide where if you're okay with even the minor form of censorship that your morals are too high, and is a red flag for virtue signaling. But if okay with no forms of censorship, then that also can be a red flag for being okay with highest offenses such as being okay with children in adult content or racist propoganda.

The attire on Tira I could "kinda-sorta" see what you mean with her outfit now having more accessories. I say kinda-sort because they did keep her large chest, in Rebirth they allow the camera to linger on them multiple times during some serious moments. And just a quick glance at articles of threads with Tifa's bikini attire and clearly this reactions (one side gaga-gooing over her goodies / outrage at how unapologetically titillating it is) was expected but no censors stopped them from even allowing her to wear that. Whilst Yuffie whose the youngest girl in the group's original attire was kept the same under her Moogle coat.

As for Tomb Raider, it sounds like the "replace with lizard people" you're referring to is more towards TR3 with Lara being able to mow down natives in the Pacific Island levels who are depicted to be cannibals, but have no association with the real enemy and are defending their home after being invaded previously. This leads to the mixed reaction to Lara, a caucasian woman, being free to shoot anyone in her way that could mimic genocide. And in the American prison levels, all the prisoners are black, though they don't attack Lara unless she attacks them. I agree with you on how the disclaimer is perfect for acknowledging choices in the past not being appropriate. Especially when information on other regions back in the 90s were limited (apparently the UK didn't have internet in this decade whilst Americans did? Correct if I'm wrong on this) so there wasn't any room for considering the depiction of others. But also, on the other hand, when you switch to remastered design of Lara, they added boob physics that jiggle in moments that were definitely not present until the 2003 Angel of Darkness game.

For my own thoughts, I'd prefer a bit more equality in character design and have no qualms to nudity as long as they're adult characters. If we were to continue having lady characters in revealing attire for the male gaze, then the same should happen for the male characters. Since lady characters are more likely to be covered up, it seems fine since male characters are already covered up or have their body's simplified (you could count on one hand how many male characters have a huge butt, compared to ladies). As for violence? Go for it, but I'm biased from being desensitized to extreme forms of violence from being able to watch slasher films in America when I was a kid. It's like there isn't a consistent standard for what's allowed today to meet "censorship standards" and there needs to be more concrete reasons. I know you said that all forms of censorship should be abolished, do you feel the same if it happens to be on the subject of race or children?

@Weez The situation with Manhunt 3 is no surprise. I mentioned Rockstar since during the entire PS2 era, their games were met with controversy and having games banned or pulled from shelves. First the Hot Coffee in GTA San Adreas had the games pulled from shelves until a new version without it, and then Manhunt 2 being rated "A" (18+, which means it could not sell in retail stores here in America) until they altered things to get it down to rated "M" (17+). Those controversies always started because of kids getting the game from their parents and the parents being outraged by the content when it was already warned on the label. Leading to retailers no longer allowed to sell an M rated game if the customer didn't look old enough to buy it without permission.

That is good point on how pre-production usually goes through the process of censoring things before the public is aware. Media in general has a certain appeal once you learned about the changes, such as when movies release deleted scenes. Tomb Raider's Lara Croft was originally depicted as Latina instead of caucasian with concept art, which explains how she was extremely tan in TR1. Or how Otacon in MGS1 was originally a black character before changing to caucasian. While not typically discussed, I do agree in these cases where such changes were made to appeal to the masses stifled a form of creativity.

@InsaneWade

> That is good point on how pre-production usually goes through the process of censoring things before the public is aware...

Precisely. Except it is not a rarity. That concern now defines the creative process in AAA development. Just, concerns over profitability are now accompanied by legitimate fear of backlash and reprisal. In an industry that relies so much on word of mouth, few are willing to court controversy be it internal or external. It's simply not good for your career. Development used to be a free for all; Ideas, good or bad, flowed freely. That's gone. I don't believe creativity can flourish in such conditions.

Personally, I'd like to see a move away from singular, large budget productions in favour of a litany of smaller ones. I dislike blockbusters. Safe, tried and tested and designed to appeal to everyone. No one game can adequately appeal to everyone. Some design interests are mutually exclusive.

Instead, I'd prefer to see a market where more titles are tailored to a wider range of niche player-bases and release more frequently.

@Sketcz
Those look great, guess the collection will just have to grow.

As for budget, absolutely, though I'd argue a lot of that cost is as a result of corporate disconnect. If games stopped trying to be movies you could shave most AAA budgets in half outright with many not even being worse off for it.

It's an interesting time. Tech-art is evolving. More essential, more ubiquitous. Proceduralism is becoming more granular - a tool to assist, rather than a creative compromise. Machine learning, as contentious as it is, can supplement hand authored art, allowing for higher fidelity in small teams. Animation being a good example - from pose suggestion, to zero-cost mocap to making top shelf tech like Motion Matching accessible. Hard to say what the next decade holds, but I'd imagine it'll include a number of small teams punching well above their weight class.

I do hope the age of the corporate monolith is coming to an end. Gathering of Developers was always a nice idea to me, at least in broad strokes. I'd like to see a return - in terms of the greater freedom, and the collaboration that made it possible.

I have heard bits and pieces about him. I've seen the news videos of the time as someone in a different region then those moments took place I can understand the context. Interesting to hear about this now though. When people understand a medium more and do or don't side with it fair knowing more, if they still think/feel that way and for their reasons. Whether through family, whether through whatever contributions it has or not.

Whatever values the medium has over time, trend to trend, social or cultural values a release needs nowadays compared to the past when laws were or aren't still in place.

Yeah it's not like we haven't had simulators (whether Operation Flashpoint on the PC in the 90s/early 00s (not the case with the later entries in the 10s I think even if it tries to keep to it) or even some US army games on the Xbox for a while) but when it's for entertainment it 'wasn't' just because it was a medium people didn't understand and was changing rapidly.

Nowadays it's more grounded then the more still seen for kids/nerds (even though I still seek out some that fit that then boring grounded games in eh locations, eh mechanics and eh characters in the games) and branching out into more possibilities.

More story telling, the arcadey or the more grounded and serious of things like disability, the dangers of war or much more depending on what perspectives to tell stories from and through gameplay actions.

But the amount of us gamers that know context and separate it. Or how games have changed over time, a lot has happened over the years. More realistic artstyles, more emotional stories, more movie/or not in some cases. Some of old still exist but just less so more and more.

To me seeing decapitation in Rise of the Ronin I was surprised. Not disappointed. I mean even playing or looking back at menus with blood/gore/swearing to turn off in Black Ops 2 or Gears games. Yet you rarely see them these days which is weird.

We have ratings I get that so they try to follow them more for sales. But if you can have Neptunia go eh change the wording in an update to appeal to kids as if 'oh this anime game needs to fit inline with parents rather than parents getting anime is for teens/adults as well' and not just have a turn the profanity off or on depending just blows my mind.

I'm all for more options, I myself found the blood effects (even if not realistic) or just the tone of Resistance 1 (when multiplayer was being played when other families came over) or COD MW2 on PS3 as a kid very scary, I've grown up so it doesn't bother me now since but at the time I'd have been fine with those effects able to be turned off. I remember this as when COD MW2 was being played I was having a hair cut. I was in the understand it age of course but from Star Wars Battlefront games to COD MW2 you could tell the difference for sure.

So with World At War offering the option to turn the more violent effects and dark scenes by moving the camera away from them (like you'd get with a God of War of old minigame for some red orbs in a way with the camera showing nothing but you still have an idea what's going on rather than a South Park we will tell you what the scene was about but can't show it even though it's rated for adults anyway, it's not like oh the South Park GBC game that was cancelled) was nice to see when I put the game in to old WW2 CODs were like from WW2 the modern one by Sledgehammer.

If it offends people but the fact we don't get the option because devs won't offer them just surprises me. We had the options 2 console gens ago with shooters or even something like blood in Kingdom Under Fire Circle of Doom a Korean RPG that's linear and not like other entries in the series but still.

While you'd have less of the decapitaion in Japanese releases sure when seeing Asian games I do get surprised if it's a Japanese, Korean or otherwise game released to the west. I'm fine with them being a thing just surprised that's all that some will still have cultural differences in their releases not a world wide release to have the least to alter per country because they want to save money not 'waste' in their minds time on each release. Then update it later if things come up or retrack the copies.

GTA was very much trying to push possibilities then the Body Harvest or Space Station Silicon Valley types DMA I mean Rockstar North they prior were for sure and the series kept going and going.

I don't think they play well as they are clunky (even more than other games level of weight/physics or character control) but the ideas, the cities recreations while not as fun as PGR of just fun layouts for race tracks and modes I get the appeal of the satire/crime thrillers (not that many people care about that stuff as others into the genre more). It all makes sense.

I appreciate GTA from a far rather than anything I want to play myself.

Even Midnight Club I get the world appeal but to me the event types just weren't compelling and I was like this is what people get excited over. At least other racing games open world or not like Burnout Paradise or circuit racers had more exciting ideas of mechanics not just a world I should be convinced by and whatever nostalgia people have.

We have racing games with eh business models and too much simulation focus then actual fun gameplay ideas and it kind of sucks so I only buy the ones with exciting ideas in them, they just so happen to be mostly 5-6th gen bit of 7th not so much a smile on my face with 8th+ gen due to more disappointment and handfuls that are good then mostly boring, dumbed down and milking dream cars and unexciting content/progression systems.

Whatever the case of censorship we still see per region or across regions because of just devs not wanting versions to be separated and having to put 'that' much effort in anymore and just wider quicker releases unless they have to change it later.

For all his faults, GTA and its ilk are indeed murder simulators, among other things.

@calbeau But if it doesn't affect me, then it doesn't affect anyone else. Ever. Period.