The only thing I'm interested in is how this thing handles Sega Saturn emulation. I'd love to be able to play the Shining Force 3 Trilogy patched in English outside of my PC. I own the original Shining Force 3 and I played all the way through it, but haven't had a chance to play the other episodes. I've heard some people say that it can't run patched ISOs and I've heard some rumors say it can.
Other than that and maybe PS1 emulation, I'm not particularly sold on this thing.
I'm primarily interested in this for the Sega Saturn emulation so I can play the Shining Force 3 games patched for English.Being able to play other CD-based consoles is a nice bonus.
The lineup of games on this thing is surprisingly solid. Really surprised to see Midnight Resistance on there. For me, Earthworm Jim is one of the main reasons to buy this. EWJ on the go? Hell yeah! The only problem is that I have a CFW PSP already so it's hard to justify this, but part of being a gaming enthusiast is buying pointless things. So chances are I will end up with one of those at some point.
Speaking of Custom firmware, I wonder how long it'll be before someone cracks this.
Getting some Atari Lynx vibes from this. I remember how that thing was basically like a bunch of portable Atari arcade games. It was also overpriced too however, and at 100 dollars, this is definitely overpriced. I'm also concerned over what versions these games are based on.
Still I'm interested just for the Interplay Collection and if they get the resolution, scaling, etc right on this, it could make for a snazzy way to enjoy some EWJ on my 4K display. There's never too many ways to get my retro game on via an HD display so I'm optimistic but not entirely sold on it yet.
I'm glad to see this article, as I've been telling people for years to stop the "physical is forever" fallacy to support their preferences for physical media. I'm a collector myself like the author appears to be, and while most of my consoles do still work, I've had my share of issues as well. Games mysteriously stop working, consoles that worked fine before giving me trouble, TVs giving out on me (CRTs are not common to come by either), and the death of one of my Game Gears. If you buy physical media or collect it, you NEED to be aware of the fact that things will break, go bad, or stop working. It comes with the hobby. I have a Model 1 HD Graphics (the best model) Sega Genesis and I'm still dreading the day it conks out on me. Same with my various SNES'. The biggest culprit I've seen as far as dying hardware is the Playstation 1. I've got a closet full of broken PS1s. Those things just don't last. I've had to resort to using PS2 slims to play PS1 games.
The good news is, aside from emulation, we have other retro gaming enthusiasts working to get more parts made, build better clone consoles, etc. Even if our consoles do eventually die off on us, we'll have alternatives.
I'm really glad that companies are realizing this is an issue for retro gamers. My old CRT that I've had for many years is finally started to crap out on me, so I had to make the leap to HD for some of my retro consoles. I still have some hooked up to another, smaller CRT, but the more HDMI options available, the better.
I'd be down for this if it allows for you to run patches on the games the way Retroduo does. I would love to play all 3 Shining Force 3 games in English via physical media. As of right now, my only real option is to simply emulate them (Despite owning the first game), since the mod chips and such have become a bit rare. Another important tidbit is if this system supports 1080p. I ASSUME it does since it's a modern system. If that's the case, they really need to advertise this fact to their advantage as many of these older games don't look or play right on modern HDTVs. Being able to emulate them all without expensive cables or boxes would be a huge boon to both collectors and casual players alike.
I don't normally dig clone consoles, but this and the AVS are starting to really appeal to me. I need to consider doing the whole Retron 5 thing too at some point. While I love having the original hardware, original hardware is sometimes a pain.
I can confirm @Einherjar is at least something I've heard as well, though I can't prove it. I've heard Nintendo literally uses SNES9X (or something similar) and a rom off the net. How true it is, I don't know. I can confirm that I have heard about it though. As for legality, I'll leave that up to people more knowledgeable than myself, but I feel like the "never leave your room again" analogy is fantastic.
For what it's worth, I also agree with @GravyThief. I'm not delusional enough to believe every (if any) was dumped for preservation... I just think that's a better way of looking at roms as opposed to some of the views shared here that roms are just inherently bad because of how some people choose to use them.
I personally hate the "only idiots buy games today" argument so I can fully understand why people would have a strong hate for piracy and any form of it, but piracy like many things has a bright side. The thriving homebrew community has given the gaming world a lot over the years.
@Ralek85 also has a good point about MP3s, which are now legally sold. Roms are convenient, that's really the bottom line for a lot of downloaders. Nintendo's VC is a nice step on capitalizing on that convenience, but it's not enough.
Another thing I wanted to point out to go along with a previous point i was trying to make about emulation breathing new life into games, is that sometimes they actually FIX games. The best example I have off the top of my head is Breath of Fire II which got a retranslation that fixed one of the biggest problems of the original game.
I'm beating a dead horse at this point though. So that's enough for now. I think the argument made in favor of roms and emulation has been made, so if the ones on the offense still don't understand, then I've done all I can. The main problem I have with the opposing view is that the only argument they really have is that it's illegal (supposedly). Ultimately that's what they continue to fall back on too. I actually wasn't going to post again but Einherjar's comment reminded me that I have heard the same claim before, so I wanted to confirm that he's not pulling it out of nowhere.
This is just one of several sources I've seen basically suggest Nintendo is using illegally dumped roms on VC. Since emulators are also readily available, free, and legal, I'm willing to bet they're also using an emu downloaded off the net too.
Food for thought for the anti-piracy crowd. For something deemed "Wrong" and "illegal", Nintendo benefits from it and could benefit from it even more.
The Soviet bit is why I specifically mentioned a while ago that Russian translations are a thing. Russian patches for roms exist because of restrictions like that. Gamers in Brazil also had (and still have) a hard time.
While the argument has been made that downloaders of roms are "entitled", it's actually the other way around entirely. People in such staunch offense about roms are themselves coming from a position of entitlement. Chances are they don't know what it's like to live in a country where obtaining games is difficult and expensive.
Of course, anyone downloading a rom for such reasons needn't apply because IT'S AGAINST DA LAW HERP DERP DERP HERPADERPDERPDERP. Common sense also need not apply.
I pity some of these people for their inability to grasp something as simple as free thinking. They live in a world where everything is black and white with no in between. Live in a country where restrictions apply? TOO BAD! Lack the finances to spend 500 dollars to import rare, expensive, out of print games? CRIMINAL! FILTHY PIRATE! Want to play a game in a language you actually understand? SCUMBAG!
This way of thinking is both pathetic and sad, as well as unrealistic and immature. This kind of thinking is why slavery existed for so long. People go along with laws and rules because they're too programmed to go against them, no matter how stupid the law may be. In this case we have a set of laws that say you can't download a digital dump of a game despite the fact said game is otherwise impossible or not practical to obtain. Clearly they should be hung.
@Kalmaro and his ilk are simply sitting atop their high horses trying to pretend to be morally sound when I'm willing to stake my life on the fact they'v broken the law many times out of convenience. It's human nature. Life is not governed by laws. Laws are man-made concepts. Laws themselves often aren't made with morality in mind. Hence why I said the two are not mutually exclusive. Downloading a 20 year old game is not the same as downloading a game that recently came out and is still being charted for sales. Arguing otherwise is moronic.
If we're going to let some laws that may or may not apply stop millions of people around the world from enjoying games no longer in the lime light, then that's pathetic. Games were meant to be enjoyed, not left to waste away because people are afraid of law. Some of the things we enjoy today came to us because someone said "hey this is stupid, let's find a better way".
There's something fundamentally wrong with the thinking being displayed by some of the people here.
EDIT: Forgot to mention (but I keep pointing out anyway) that people are white knighting about the law when the LAW ITSELF DOES NOT ENFORCE IT! The FBI does not give a crap if someone in America downloads a PAL game from 1994. It's simply not enforced. Even publishers rarely enforce it. Nintendo is one of the few who still do and even then they only seem to enforce it if it's something they're planning to make money on. I have never, ever, heard of anyone being arrested or fined for downloading a rom. Dumping? Maybe. The law doesn't care until you start trying to make money off it.
It's ridiculous how far people go to blindly follow the law when even the law doesn't care. If the law doesn't enforce it, why do you care? Seriously I want to know why people care so much that they will stick their heads in the sand and go "lalalalalala!". Because you fancy yourself such a law-abiding person? BS. At this point, I'm starting to think the people so violently against roms in any form (regardless of how stupid it is) just want an excuse to argue/troll/white knight.
EDIT 2: I also want to point out the hypocrisy involved here. Nintendo themselves are selling roms. Suddenly, it's okay to download a rom! You paid for it. These people act like roms are the devil when Nintendo themselves sell roms for a profit. Then we have these geniuses who advocate clone hardware when most of the companies making the things are directly profiting off of emulator and rom technology.
Predicted response was predicted. Slavery was also condoned by the law, that doesn't make it right. You choose to be a braindead slave and I choose to think for myself. We certainly are different.
Better obey those rules everyone! They're meant to be followed, not broken! Beep boop.
Someone downloaded a game no longer in production! Call the police! They're breaking the law! Give me a break dude. I can't even take you seriously anymore. Dr. Light couldn't have programmed a better robot. The fact you CONTINUE to ignore the fact individual users have the ability to decide for themselves whether they're right or wrong shows my efforts are completely being wasted. I'd have more luck with an actual robot.
Predicted response: "It's against the law and therefore wrong."
"This is kinda why we can't agree on anything. If something is illegal then it is wrong but then you say it is not wrong."
Morality and legality are not mutually exclusive. Just because something is illegal doesn't make it inherently evil. The fact you fail to realize that is why this argument never goes anywhere. I'm not going into the legality on it because I'm not a lawyer. It's also not a crime that's enforced. So if the law doesn't care, why should you? It's literally a non-issue.
Again, many roms exist that are IMPOSSIBLE to buy, such as BS Zelda. I'm fairly certain that's illegal, but no one can make a profit off it and it's physically impossible to play otherwise. No one cares. That's why BS Zelda is commonly found being streamed. No one is going to enforce it, not even Nintendo.
You are a broken record because you repeat the same tired argument that I'm not refuting. It's illegal. I didn't deny it. I choose not to follow it. That's called free thinking. Deal with it.
Predicted machine-generated response: "It's illegal so it's wrong".
This was part of why I said "difficult to do" yesterday. PAL consoles sometimes won't work on NTSC TVs. The reason I didn't use that in my argument was I didn't see the need when dealing with someone that unreasonable. The cost of importing a console and the game alone is fairly high, the TV would inflate the price even more. All that just to get a game from the 90s to work. Clearly, that was what I should have done, despite the fact I was pretty much a child at the time.
The fact I now own the game is also probably irrelevant. We'll never know because he had no response. Must have been too much for him to handle all at once.
Once a thief, always a thief! Spend hundreds to play a game never released in your country! Make ebay sellers rich! That's the bottom line here. /sarcasm
Another fact I didn't bring up was that given the hurdles to get the game to run, I'd have never done it. I'm not sure where I learned about the game, but I'm assuming I read about it online somewhere. With such a high entry barrier, I'd have passed on it. I think that would be a much bigger shame considering how underrated it is.
Just to counter my own argument, it's also possible to run PAL games on a specific game genie, but that's rare and expensive. Hardly as simple as sanding out the prongs in an SNES.
All of this overkill and beating a long-dead horse though.
Good point about clone hardware. I mostly focused on the fact clone hardware is shoddy, but you're right about it being a form of emulation. Most clone machines also allow you to use roms on them, so the argument in favor of clone hardware is pretty ridiculous, especially when clone hardware developers are technically making a profit off of emulation. Not ALL hardware uses roms but most clone machines I've seen do.
Also, as pointed out, Starfox 2 didn't see the light of day until emulation. I know the SNES Mini has it now, and many people may buy it JUST for that.
@crackafreeze
Exactly. For me, this is the main reason I use emulation. I can download a rom, patch it for my language, and play it. As I stated waaaay above all this, this is great for people who don't speak English too, as many Russian translations and so on exist for games Americans and Europeans take for granted. Being an FE fan in 2002 and such, I owe my fandom to emulation, which was the only way to play ANY of the games in English at the time.
There's too many Japanese games to count... Sweet Home, SD3, Tenchi Souzo, Live-A-Live, etc... These games got a 2nd lease on life via emulation long after they were made. Same with the Dreamcast which lived on as a curious machine you could run homebrew and freeware on. It's not ALL evil.
The BS games are also a strong point in favor of emulation, and for us Americans we would have lost Wily Wars on Genesis/Mega Drive a long time ago without emulation, as no physical copies were made here. It was a free download on Sega Channel.
Pretty much spot on on, but don't waste time on @Jimi. As you can see by scrolling up, he's only here to insult people and call them thieves with absolutely no argument.I told him the exact same thing and even proved I bought the game later on. He's not worth wasting time on. His "arguements" consist of irrelevant, incoherent rants and accusations, and as you can see, he made no attempt to continue once his pathetic argument was torn down. By his logic anyone who downloads a rom regardless of circumstance is a thief. Even when the person he's accusing of being a thief actually owns said game, and hundreds of others. His entire argument consists of throwing up strawmen. It's a waste of time.
@Chozo85
Thanks, but I eventually gave up. @Kalmaro and his ilk are a bit of a lost cause. No point in conversing with people who will simply fall back on the legality argument when they're pushed. Not many people are arguing that, we know it's illegal. It's a pointless debate because one side will go around a track like a go kart, regardless of what the other side is saying. If people like that want to turn down the many pluses to emulation because of a single negative, that's up to them.
Basically, we have two extremes. One being the blind following of rules and laws, the other being a blanket statement of everyone being a thief. Neither are sound arguments and both are easily torn down. At the end of the day, roms are not evil, it's the intent of the downloader.
This is the only BBC game I know of that would fit that description.
The only other one I can think of is BMX on the Moon but that's as far as I can recall. I'm an American so a lot of the UK games are a bit lost on me.
Also @Leej07, on the subject of BS games, I had a grand time playing BS Zelda on my CFW PSP. One of the many things you can't do without emulation. Also, do you recall the Sega Channel? The Wily Wars was basically preserved entirely through emulation and rom dumping, as I'm unaware of any way to obtain a physical copy of that game beyond maybe a rare reproduction cart. I had way too much fun playing Wily Wars on an emulator, and I'm doubtful I'd have got a chance to play it otherwise. (Edit: To clarify, Wily Wars was not released in the US physically, so it's not accessible to us now. The game would have died out around here. I hear it DOES have a physical release in the EU)
Thank you. This is all I've been saying for the last 2 hours. BS Zelda is a fantastic example too. As I've been trying to say, not ALL games got released in the US. Some got locked in Japan, some didn't get physical releases at all, etc etc etc.
None of it matters when people will dismiss that with "it's still illegal". I'm not about to sit here and waste all night trying to explain this to people.
Being available through Japanese VC is completely irrelevant if you don't speak Japanese. >_< Once again, this goes back to my point about patching roms. You can't patch VC, and for god's sake, VC is literally a rom. The very thing you seem to be so violently against.
I swear arguing with you is like arguing with a well-programmed robot. Sometimes I think I'm getting through to you, and sometimes I'm convinced you're not paying attention at all. No matter how many rounds we go, you just turn around and go back to the same point about how "IT'S AGAINST THE RULES!". No one cares.
I feel like I'm arguing with some kind of cultist. At this point, I'm done. For real this time. Life is too short to waste arguing with a machine. I can spend all day explaining to you the many plus sides to emulation and you will simply dismiss all of them with "it's still illegal". It's a complete waste of time.
As I pointed out to Jimi, I do import, but there's the issue of a language barrier, which your apparent solution is to play on clone hardware. This goes back to my original point of who are you tell people what to do? Who made you the fun police? I own the game, isn't that enough? More so, if people who download Seisen no Keifu don't have a copy, so what? They can't buy it, they can't support the devs.
The longer this goes on, the more pointless it gets. Like @roadrunner343, this is not going to lead us to some Planet of the Apes scenario. This is not an act of anarchy. It's a bunch of nerds playing old games while everyone else is playing Call of Duty.
"If you follow all the rules, you miss all the fun."
This quote applies to you, buddy. I'm not going to call you a hypocrite though, because this proves what I knew all along: That most people regardless of how moral they pretend to be, have downloaded a rom at some point in their lives. It also proves that you know deep down that roms are not evil. You're just too busy being the fun police to take the time to realize that no one cares but you.
Keep following those rules pal. You'll keep missing out on all the fun in life.
Way less harm as in no harm at all? I'm a collector. I own 20k worth in video games. So what if I want to emulate a game not released in my country? It hurts NO ONE. I've spent thousands on my collection. Some of the games I emulate (such as Seisen no Keifu) are games I already own anyway. I just emulate it to play in English because I get a headache from reading Japanese for too long. So what? Who are you to dictate what I do?
And if they release it again, then said person can go and buy the game legally. Simple as that. My point isn't about that, it's about the many games one cannot experience normally without emulation, importing, or spending a great deal of money. Emulation deals with ALL of these aspects of gaming. If Nintendo wants to make money on Seisen no Keifu, then translate it, put it up on VC, and let me buy it. As it stands, FE 1-6 are Japan only, as well as FE12. That's almost half the games missing from the franchise.
The simple fact is, emulation is not something that's enforced very often. The law doesn't care. Do you think anyone is going to be arrested or fined for playing a Japanese game on their PC? No. The reason users regulate it themselves is because very rarely is it even enforced to begin with. That's why people often decide for themselves if it's okay or not. Have you seen a single person in this feed say it's okay to download 3DS, Wii U, or Switch games? No, you haven't. Because at the end of the day, people often decide for themselves. It's this thing called free thinking. if you possessed it, you'd know about it.
That said, I think we should just agree to disagree. The important thing is we both agree that taking money from devs is wrong and video games should be preserved. I think that's a lot more important than arguing about legality. Neither of us is going to budge anyway, and I appreciate the fact you never once accused me of being a thief. At the very least, I think you DO recognize the difference between downloading an old NES game (such as Sweet Home) to play in English, and someone downloading Pokemon S&M. If we agree on that much, that's good enough.
I'd love to know how anyone was affected by someone downloading a 15-20 year old game no longer in production. How does someone discovering games they never saw in their native country "rarely matter much"? You almost had my respect, but now you've lost it again. How is that harmful?
Some of you people are so well programmed, I'm amazed you can even function. You're so brainwashed into thinking everything is so black and white that it's a little sad.
You're treating people downloading out of print, no longer produced games the same as someone downloading a copy of the latest Final Fantasy illegal, when the two have almost nothing in common beyond the fact they're committing a "crime". Being able to download a game not released in your native country, patch it, and play it in your language is not a bad thing. You're so close-minded that you're completely unable to see the MANY benefits of emulation I have outlined, despite the fact I've made them so easy to understand.
EDIT: You also didn't respond to my point about clone systems playing everything. You act as if there's clone systems that will patch PC Engine games, GBA games, Genesis games, etc. There's THOUSANDS of games out there. No clone system can play them all. Your point is moot, and you even disregarded the fact clone hardware is often shoddy. So you advocate playing on inferior hardware just because of the legality of downloading an ancient, out of print game? Good to know.
Do you not understand how economy works? The only person who would benefit from my buying those on the sites you just mentioned would be the SELLER and not the DEVELOPER or the one LICENSING the game. To make this easy for you to understand, I'm saying Nintendo, Enix, and Quintet would not earn a single cent from that purchase.
Also did you not read what I just said? I cannot legally buy the game here, it's not FOR SALE. It never was. The game was never ported to the US.
Why, those are Japanese imports! Including Tenchi Souzo, which PAL folks know as Terrranigma. So how am I thief again exactly? I'm a collector, dude. I enjoyed the games I discovered through emulation so much, I went back and bought them off Amazon and Ebay from Japan.
So please, continue to troll harder and make baseless assumptions. I've already explained to you once how it's not stealing because the devs don't earn anything from it, but you were incapable of comprehending that. Even when I later bought the games, none of the profits went to any of the people behind the game. If I could have legally bought the game and supported the devs, I would have. That was impossible however, and even more impossible now.
"You are stealing from either Enix and/or Nintendo.
You steal the PAL English version, so you are effectively stealing from both of them. Nintendo did the translation and testing. And I think Nintendo is still around."
Enix isn't even around anymore... They were bought by Square. Quintet is defunct. Anyone who could have ever made a profit is gone. >_<
@Siskan
That sounds like a personal problem. As others have stated, it's not so black and white as people make it out to be, and as I stated, no one is really arguing the legality of it. Lots of things are illegal, but people choose to pursue it anyway.
Also the key word is clone system, which still requires the downloading of the patch to work. I will concede that though, I had actually forgotten about clone systems. However, that costs money, which doesn't go to the developer anyway, so there's absolutely no reason not to download the rom unless you are just 100% against doing so. Which in all honesty, is completely fair. At the same time however, you should respect the fact that some people choose to play on an emulator. I myself have emulated games I already own. Is it still illegal? Yes. As far as i know. Do I care? No. I'm not letting a small thing like that detract me from something that has been of benefit to countless gamers, including introducing them to games they may not have known about.
I still think we're basically on the same side of the argument though. We just don't agree on the legality aspect. I won't try to change your mind on it. When it comes to emulation, it often falls on the user, which is why I said roms are not evil. Its how people use them.
EDIT: On the subject of clone systems, I'm also fairly certain no clone system plays everything nor patches everything. For example, if I want to play a Japanese GBA game with an English patch, what clone system would I buy? I'm not even aware of a clone system for GBA that also supports patches. So the existence of clone hardware (which is often shoddy and unreliable) isn't a good solution.
An ideal solution would obviously be playing my original copies on original hardware with patches, but that's impossible right now.
@roadrunner343
Thanks, it's nice to have a voice of reason on the matter. Jimi seems to be under the impression I'm condoning the downloading of games still in production when I have made it quite clear I'm not. If I know a download takes away from a dev, I won't do it. Simple as that.
As I said above, go look up what "Stealing" means and then come back to the conversation. You have 0 argument and quite frankly sound like a complete fool. I'm hoping that you're just a troll.
The company who made Terranigma lost 0 profit from me downloading a rom which I cannot legally buy in the first place. Assume for one moment I did buy an actual PAL SNES and the game... How does that benefit Enix, Quintet, or Nintendo? They wouldn't gain a cent from it. Terranigma at that point was no longer sold in stores, SNES was discontinued, and Quintet went dark and is presumed defunct.
You can't possibly be as dense as you're making yourself out to be.
Read my above post and learn how to post one time, rather than spam the feed with your nonsense. Your entire rant was already addressed and is completely irrelevant to anything I said. You're going off on a rant about paying for things when I already stated above that taking profit away from developers is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged. Learn reading comprehension.
EDIT: Because I'm a nice guy, I will even quote what I said directly to spare you the agony of having to do it yourself.
"As a disclaimer though, I am very much against people using such things to download and play modern games so they can circumvent having to buy it. That's not cool, and that is the unfortunate dark side to emulation. One I'm not denying exists."
That would be great in an ideal world, but we don't live in an ideal world. Not only would they have to open up their entire library (which would be amazing), but they would have to open up the library for every game made before 2005 pretty much, otherwise emulation and roms will continue to live strong.
@jimi
And here we have someone who clearly didn't take the time to read my posts at all, or he'd otherwise know why his response is total nonsense. We're not talking just Nintendo, and even if we are, you're completely ignoring the fact the two games I mentioned above (Seiken Densetsu 3 and Seisen no Keifu) are to this day, not released outside of Japan. Both games are translated (one fully, one partially) so not only can you download them, but enjoy them in English which is my native tongue. There also exists Chinese, Russian, etc patches of games that English speakers may take for granted.
More importantly, I'm talking in terms of about 10 years ago. 10 years ago, having to buy a PAL SNES and the game would not only have been expensive, but difficult to do. And for what purpose? To play a game I can take 10 seconds to download at NO COST TO THE ORIGINAL DEVS? Yeah, brilliant argument. Way to disregard my whole point.
Also who is it stealing from? The original team behind Terranigma isn't even around anymore. Your argument is by FAR the worst one presented here thus far. You fail. Utterly. Go learn what stealing means, then come back and make another attempt at arguing intelligently.
I plainly explained why your argument is flimsy. Because one group is doing something, doesn't mean another group shouldn't. The archiving of video games in the form of rom dumping has been going on for a long, long time. As I said, I could just as easily argue Sweden and Europe don't have to do it because it's already done. I'm not making that argument because I think that's pretty great. You on the other hand plainly stated the following:
"There are already game preservation organizations in many countries which preserve these legally. And they dump the games on their own."
"And my point is that there's no point in viewing it as preservation whether that's the intention or not, as they will be preserved anyway."
That's completely ridiculous. I don't know how long Sweden has been doing this, but chances are rom dumping existed online long before Sweden and Europe started. If that wasn't the point you're trying to convey, then I guess I misunderstood.
Also, I highly doubt it's possible to play games like Seiken Densetsu 3, Seisen no Keifu, etc in English without patching a rom. If you have some other means of playing those games in English, then do please enlighten me. Even if it's somehow possible, it doesn't change the fact that at one point this was the ONLY way to play unreleased Japanese games in English. I'm 99.9% sure it still is. I'd be amazed to hear this other method you seem to have.
That's cool, we can agree to disagree. I just wish you'd open your mind a bit. Roms are not evil, dude. Some of my favorite games were discovered through emulation. Not only does it preserve, but it allows us to discover things outside our worlds.
Case in point, Terranigma never came to the US. It was released as Tenchi Souzo in Japan and Terranigma in the PAL format. Despite being fully translated, US players cannot access it easily. Even pulling the prongs out of the system cannot allow a game in the PAL format to work on a North American SNES. I discovered this beautiful game through emulation and it became one of my all time favorites. Had I not accessed emulation, I'd probably still be ignorant to it. I'd say that's a shame, and more insulting the devs than the fact I downloaded it online. I imagine If I could speak with the devs, they wouldn't care one bit that I illegally downloaded a game they no longer make a profit from. They'd probably be happy to hear how much I enjoyed it.
This is true for many, many franchises and games locked in other countries. I'm sorry you can't see that through your tiny bubble and inability to look past legality. I wish you well.
Right on. Roms and Emulation are important parts of gaming culture, always have been.
@Kalmaro
At this point, you're just mindlessly white knighting and not bothering to respond to my points, so I'm not going to try and reason with you any further. You're far too cemented in your bubble and I'm not going to waste time trying to penetrate it when you can't bother to respond to a person's points. You literally glossed over everything I said and responded with what may as well be some kind of machine-processed response. Clearly you're well programmed. Multiple people have tried to get through to you and you're just repeating yourself. You respond to each point with "but it's still illegal!' which no one is even trying to deny.
I'm fine with what Sweden is doing and I commend that, but you're still missing my point. As stated in my post, many games were never released, never released outside of a specific country, etc.. What Sweden is doing is well and good, and nowhere in my post did I argue that it's a human right to be able to play an old game. My point is that emulation and rom dumping preserves games and allows the current generation and future generations to play and enjoy games that are no longer drawing income for the developers. If your whole argument is "Well, Sweden is preserving these games so you shouldn't worry about it.", then not only is that flimsy, but completely ridiculous. Not everyone lives in Sweden. Not everyone lives in Europe. Roms and emulation allow people all over the world to enjoy games they may not have access to. Ask anyone living in Brazil for example. The ability to freely download and play a game from 1980, Japan, etc and play it, or enjoy it in your own native tongue is a beautiful thing, and many people owe their fandom to this simple ability.
You want to argue human rights? No one has a right to play any game, period. Gaming by nature is a luxury. You really have no argument, and if anything, it sounds like we're on the same side of this discussion anyway.
Put simply? You're saying because Sweden is preserving these games, no one else has to. That's an utterly ridiculous argument. That's like me saying because I'm a collector, no one else has to collect games. I'm doing it. No one else has to. There's more than one way to preserve games. There is no single best means. I'm not sure how long Sweden has been archiving these, but this has been going on in the cyberworld for about 20 years. I could just as easily argue that there's no need for Sweden to it when thousands of games already exist in rom form. It would be a ridiculous argument for me to make, and it's a ridiculous one for you to make.
This is also an excellent point. Just look at the Dreamcast, which owes itself to the homebrew community that started after Sega ceased production and support. This also happens with Xbox, Wii, and PSP just to name a few. Years after the original makers have discontinued support, homebrewers breathe new life into these systems. I myself enjoy a custom firmwared, softmodded PSP which I use to play Japanese roms patched into English. Before Fire Emblem was mainstream, the ONLY way to play the games in English was to download a rom and patch it. This is all done with no profit at all taken from Nintendo or Intelligent Systems. As an FE fan growing up in the early 2000's, I owe my fandom to emulation. I would have never got to experience HALF the games without it.
As a disclaimer though, I am very much against people using such things to download and play modern games so they can circumvent having to buy it. That's not cool, and that is the unfortunate dark side to emulation. One I'm not denying exists.
And playable by whom? The point of it all is being able to preserve and play. The act of preserving a game does no one any good if it's not easily accessible to the public.
Or you could try simply reading my above post on the merits of roms. There are MANY ups to ROMs and very few downs.
Not exactly the same circumstances. ROMs are not the same as stealing and people have been doing this since video games existed. The act of making a digital dump of a game is an old practice and one people will continue to do.
Obviously, no one dumps a rom with the purpose of preserving it and that was never my argument to begin with. I'm simply saying that a more positive outlook is to view the roms as preservation. At no point did I ague that dumpers are saviors of the video game kingdom building an Ark of video game data. I simply said that the roms themselves are a digital preservation of video games. Anyone with the slightest tech saavy can access a rom and play it. Also, roms are the ONLY way to play some games. Not everything had a physical release. This applies to Japanese games as well, which can be downloaded and patched by English speakers to enjoy in their own native tongue.
Put simply, there is nothing evil about roms, only the intent behind the downloader. Downloading new games that are still being counted as a profit towards the developer is bad, no one here is denying that. 20+ year old games are a different story. Arguing otherwise is simply white knighting and arguing for the sake of arguing.
Roms preserve these games though. if you look at rom dumping as a preservation act, they become a lot less sinister. I''m not a fan of flashcarts myself but the roms themselves are not evil, they're a preservation of the past.
That said, you may be right about Nintendolife being so forward with flashcarts.
Comments 42
Re: Polymega Units Are Finally Arriving In The Hands Of Customers
@ramu-chan
Admittedly this is the main draw for me.
Re: After Months Of Silence, Polymega Insists Pre-Orders Are Shipping Soon
The only thing I'm interested in is how this thing handles Sega Saturn emulation. I'd love to be able to play the Shining Force 3 Trilogy patched in English outside of my PC. I own the original Shining Force 3 and I played all the way through it, but haven't had a chance to play the other episodes. I've heard some people say that it can't run patched ISOs and I've heard some rumors say it can.
Other than that and maybe PS1 emulation, I'm not particularly sold on this thing.
Re: Ready To Ditch Those AA Batteries? Check Out The Amazing 'CleanJuice' Game Boy Mod
I love Gameboy mods and this one looks pretty nice.
Re: Sega Just Showed Off A Prototype Handheld For The First Time Ever
I would love to see the Nomad make a comeback.
Re: Hardware Review: Game Gear Micro - Go Home Sega, You're Drunk
Supposedly even the VMU has a bigger screen than this.
Re: Hardware Review: Believe The Hype, Polymega Is The Ultimate All-In-One Retro Machine
I'm primarily interested in this for the Sega Saturn emulation so I can play the Shining Force 3 games patched for English.Being able to play other CD-based consoles is a nice bonus.
Re: Terraonion Is Releasing An Optical Disc Emulator For The Sega Saturn And Dreamcast
This is exactly what I've been waiting for, especially for Saturn. Looks relatively easy to install, too.
Re: Hardware Review: Evercade - Can A 100% Physical Media Console Really Work In 2020?
The lineup of games on this thing is surprisingly solid. Really surprised to see Midnight Resistance on there. For me, Earthworm Jim is one of the main reasons to buy this. EWJ on the go? Hell yeah! The only problem is that I have a CFW PSP already so it's hard to justify this, but part of being a gaming enthusiast is buying pointless things. So chances are I will end up with one of those at some point.
Speaking of Custom firmware, I wonder how long it'll be before someone cracks this.
Re: Arcade1Up Is Reviving A Sega Classic That Has Never Been Seen Outside Of Arcades
Revenge of Death Adder is a solid game and really needs to come to Switch as a Sega Ages title or something like that.
Re: Hardware Review: Capcom Home Arcade Is The Most Ludicrous Micro-Console Yet, And We're In Love
Aliens vs Predator is literally the only reason I even want this thing.
Re: The Evercade Handheld System Will Get New Retro-Style Indie Games, As Well As Old Classics
Getting some Atari Lynx vibes from this. I remember how that thing was basically like a bunch of portable Atari arcade games. It was also overpriced too however, and at 100 dollars, this is definitely overpriced. I'm also concerned over what versions these games are based on.
Still I'm interested just for the Interplay Collection and if they get the resolution, scaling, etc right on this, it could make for a snazzy way to enjoy some EWJ on my 4K display. There's never too many ways to get my retro game on via an HD display so I'm optimistic but not entirely sold on it yet.
Re: Feature: Your Beloved Games Console Is Slowly But Surely Dying
I'm glad to see this article, as I've been telling people for years to stop the "physical is forever" fallacy to support their preferences for physical media. I'm a collector myself like the author appears to be, and while most of my consoles do still work, I've had my share of issues as well. Games mysteriously stop working, consoles that worked fine before giving me trouble, TVs giving out on me (CRTs are not common to come by either), and the death of one of my Game Gears. If you buy physical media or collect it, you NEED to be aware of the fact that things will break, go bad, or stop working. It comes with the hobby. I have a Model 1 HD Graphics (the best model) Sega Genesis and I'm still dreading the day it conks out on me. Same with my various SNES'. The biggest culprit I've seen as far as dying hardware is the Playstation 1. I've got a closet full of broken PS1s. Those things just don't last. I've had to resort to using PS2 slims to play PS1 games.
The good news is, aside from emulation, we have other retro gaming enthusiasts working to get more parts made, build better clone consoles, etc. Even if our consoles do eventually die off on us, we'll have alternatives.
Re: Feature: One Company Is Retrofitting Classic Systems With HDMI Output Without Costing The Earth
I'm really glad that companies are realizing this is an issue for retro gamers. My old CRT that I've had for many years is finally started to crap out on me, so I had to make the leap to HD for some of my retro consoles. I still have some hooked up to another, smaller CRT, but the more HDMI options available, the better.
Re: Feature: How Mortal Kombat Defined The Console War Between Sega And Nintendo
Pretty fun article to read, but what brought this on exactly? Is there an MK game coming to Switch that I don't know about?
Re: Hardware Review: The Retro-Bit Go Retro! Portable Is A Rose-Tinted Disappointment
The only word I saw in this review was "breast stroke".
Re: Hands On: Exploring The Future Of Retro Gaming With Polymega
I'd be down for this if it allows for you to run patches on the games the way Retroduo does. I would love to play all 3 Shining Force 3 games in English via physical media. As of right now, my only real option is to simply emulate them (Despite owning the first game), since the mod chips and such have become a bit rare. Another important tidbit is if this system supports 1080p. I ASSUME it does since it's a modern system. If that's the case, they really need to advertise this fact to their advantage as many of these older games don't look or play right on modern HDTVs. Being able to emulate them all without expensive cables or boxes would be a huge boon to both collectors and casual players alike.
I don't normally dig clone consoles, but this and the AVS are starting to really appeal to me. I need to consider doing the whole Retron 5 thing too at some point. While I love having the original hardware, original hardware is sometimes a pain.
Re: Legendary Cover Artist Bob Wakelin Passes Away
His cover art was so much better than 90% of the games he made them for.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
I can confirm @Einherjar is at least something I've heard as well, though I can't prove it. I've heard Nintendo literally uses SNES9X (or something similar) and a rom off the net. How true it is, I don't know. I can confirm that I have heard about it though. As for legality, I'll leave that up to people more knowledgeable than myself, but I feel like the "never leave your room again" analogy is fantastic.
For what it's worth, I also agree with @GravyThief. I'm not delusional enough to believe every (if any) was dumped for preservation... I just think that's a better way of looking at roms as opposed to some of the views shared here that roms are just inherently bad because of how some people choose to use them.
I personally hate the "only idiots buy games today" argument so I can fully understand why people would have a strong hate for piracy and any form of it, but piracy like many things has a bright side. The thriving homebrew community has given the gaming world a lot over the years.
@Ralek85 also has a good point about MP3s, which are now legally sold. Roms are convenient, that's really the bottom line for a lot of downloaders. Nintendo's VC is a nice step on capitalizing on that convenience, but it's not enough.
Another thing I wanted to point out to go along with a previous point i was trying to make about emulation breathing new life into games, is that sometimes they actually FIX games. The best example I have off the top of my head is Breath of Fire II which got a retranslation that fixed one of the biggest problems of the original game.
I'm beating a dead horse at this point though. So that's enough for now. I think the argument made in favor of roms and emulation has been made, so if the ones on the offense still don't understand, then I've done all I can. The main problem I have with the opposing view is that the only argument they really have is that it's illegal (supposedly). Ultimately that's what they continue to fall back on too. I actually wasn't going to post again but Einherjar's comment reminded me that I have heard the same claim before, so I wanted to confirm that he's not pulling it out of nowhere.
EDIT: Actually found bit on eurogamer about this:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-download-a-mario-rom-and-sell-it-back-to-us
This is just one of several sources I've seen basically suggest Nintendo is using illegally dumped roms on VC. Since emulators are also readily available, free, and legal, I'm willing to bet they're also using an emu downloaded off the net too.
Food for thought for the anti-piracy crowd. For something deemed "Wrong" and "illegal", Nintendo benefits from it and could benefit from it even more.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Leej07
The Soviet bit is why I specifically mentioned a while ago that Russian translations are a thing. Russian patches for roms exist because of restrictions like that. Gamers in Brazil also had (and still have) a hard time.
While the argument has been made that downloaders of roms are "entitled", it's actually the other way around entirely. People in such staunch offense about roms are themselves coming from a position of entitlement. Chances are they don't know what it's like to live in a country where obtaining games is difficult and expensive.
Of course, anyone downloading a rom for such reasons needn't apply because IT'S AGAINST DA LAW HERP DERP DERP HERPADERPDERPDERP. Common sense also need not apply.
I pity some of these people for their inability to grasp something as simple as free thinking. They live in a world where everything is black and white with no in between. Live in a country where restrictions apply? TOO BAD! Lack the finances to spend 500 dollars to import rare, expensive, out of print games? CRIMINAL! FILTHY PIRATE! Want to play a game in a language you actually understand? SCUMBAG!
This way of thinking is both pathetic and sad, as well as unrealistic and immature. This kind of thinking is why slavery existed for so long. People go along with laws and rules because they're too programmed to go against them, no matter how stupid the law may be. In this case we have a set of laws that say you can't download a digital dump of a game despite the fact said game is otherwise impossible or not practical to obtain. Clearly they should be hung.
@Kalmaro and his ilk are simply sitting atop their high horses trying to pretend to be morally sound when I'm willing to stake my life on the fact they'v broken the law many times out of convenience. It's human nature. Life is not governed by laws. Laws are man-made concepts. Laws themselves often aren't made with morality in mind. Hence why I said the two are not mutually exclusive. Downloading a 20 year old game is not the same as downloading a game that recently came out and is still being charted for sales. Arguing otherwise is moronic.
If we're going to let some laws that may or may not apply stop millions of people around the world from enjoying games no longer in the lime light, then that's pathetic. Games were meant to be enjoyed, not left to waste away because people are afraid of law. Some of the things we enjoy today came to us because someone said "hey this is stupid, let's find a better way".
There's something fundamentally wrong with the thinking being displayed by some of the people here.
EDIT: Forgot to mention (but I keep pointing out anyway) that people are white knighting about the law when the LAW ITSELF DOES NOT ENFORCE IT! The FBI does not give a crap if someone in America downloads a PAL game from 1994. It's simply not enforced. Even publishers rarely enforce it. Nintendo is one of the few who still do and even then they only seem to enforce it if it's something they're planning to make money on. I have never, ever, heard of anyone being arrested or fined for downloading a rom. Dumping? Maybe. The law doesn't care until you start trying to make money off it.
It's ridiculous how far people go to blindly follow the law when even the law doesn't care. If the law doesn't enforce it, why do you care? Seriously I want to know why people care so much that they will stick their heads in the sand and go "lalalalalala!". Because you fancy yourself such a law-abiding person? BS. At this point, I'm starting to think the people so violently against roms in any form (regardless of how stupid it is) just want an excuse to argue/troll/white knight.
EDIT 2: I also want to point out the hypocrisy involved here. Nintendo themselves are selling roms. Suddenly, it's okay to download a rom! You paid for it. These people act like roms are the devil when Nintendo themselves sell roms for a profit. Then we have these geniuses who advocate clone hardware when most of the companies making the things are directly profiting off of emulator and rom technology.
Completely ridiculous.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Kalmaro
Predicted response was predicted. Slavery was also condoned by the law, that doesn't make it right. You choose to be a braindead slave and I choose to think for myself. We certainly are different.
Better obey those rules everyone! They're meant to be followed, not broken! Beep boop.
Someone downloaded a game no longer in production! Call the police! They're breaking the law! Give me a break dude. I can't even take you seriously anymore. Dr. Light couldn't have programmed a better robot. The fact you CONTINUE to ignore the fact individual users have the ability to decide for themselves whether they're right or wrong shows my efforts are completely being wasted. I'd have more luck with an actual robot.
Predicted response: "It's against the law and therefore wrong."
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Kalmaro
"This is kinda why we can't agree on anything. If something is illegal then it is wrong but then you say it is not wrong."
Morality and legality are not mutually exclusive. Just because something is illegal doesn't make it inherently evil. The fact you fail to realize that is why this argument never goes anywhere. I'm not going into the legality on it because I'm not a lawyer. It's also not a crime that's enforced. So if the law doesn't care, why should you? It's literally a non-issue.
Again, many roms exist that are IMPOSSIBLE to buy, such as BS Zelda. I'm fairly certain that's illegal, but no one can make a profit off it and it's physically impossible to play otherwise. No one cares. That's why BS Zelda is commonly found being streamed. No one is going to enforce it, not even Nintendo.
You are a broken record because you repeat the same tired argument that I'm not refuting. It's illegal. I didn't deny it. I choose not to follow it. That's called free thinking. Deal with it.
Predicted machine-generated response: "It's illegal so it's wrong".
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Leej07 @Anguspuss
This was part of why I said "difficult to do" yesterday. PAL consoles sometimes won't work on NTSC TVs. The reason I didn't use that in my argument was I didn't see the need when dealing with someone that unreasonable. The cost of importing a console and the game alone is fairly high, the TV would inflate the price even more. All that just to get a game from the 90s to work. Clearly, that was what I should have done, despite the fact I was pretty much a child at the time.
The fact I now own the game is also probably irrelevant. We'll never know because he had no response. Must have been too much for him to handle all at once.
Once a thief, always a thief! Spend hundreds to play a game never released in your country! Make ebay sellers rich! That's the bottom line here. /sarcasm
Another fact I didn't bring up was that given the hurdles to get the game to run, I'd have never done it. I'm not sure where I learned about the game, but I'm assuming I read about it online somewhere. With such a high entry barrier, I'd have passed on it. I think that would be a much bigger shame considering how underrated it is.
Just to counter my own argument, it's also possible to run PAL games on a specific game genie, but that's rare and expensive. Hardly as simple as sanding out the prongs in an SNES.
All of this overkill and beating a long-dead horse though.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@roadrunner343
Good point about clone hardware. I mostly focused on the fact clone hardware is shoddy, but you're right about it being a form of emulation. Most clone machines also allow you to use roms on them, so the argument in favor of clone hardware is pretty ridiculous, especially when clone hardware developers are technically making a profit off of emulation. Not ALL hardware uses roms but most clone machines I've seen do.
Also, as pointed out, Starfox 2 didn't see the light of day until emulation. I know the SNES Mini has it now, and many people may buy it JUST for that.
@crackafreeze
Exactly. For me, this is the main reason I use emulation. I can download a rom, patch it for my language, and play it. As I stated waaaay above all this, this is great for people who don't speak English too, as many Russian translations and so on exist for games Americans and Europeans take for granted. Being an FE fan in 2002 and such, I owe my fandom to emulation, which was the only way to play ANY of the games in English at the time.
There's too many Japanese games to count... Sweet Home, SD3, Tenchi Souzo, Live-A-Live, etc... These games got a 2nd lease on life via emulation long after they were made. Same with the Dreamcast which lived on as a curious machine you could run homebrew and freeware on. It's not ALL evil.
The BS games are also a strong point in favor of emulation, and for us Americans we would have lost Wily Wars on Genesis/Mega Drive a long time ago without emulation, as no physical copies were made here. It was a free download on Sega Channel.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@electrolite77
Pretty much spot on on, but don't waste time on @Jimi. As you can see by scrolling up, he's only here to insult people and call them thieves with absolutely no argument.I told him the exact same thing and even proved I bought the game later on. He's not worth wasting time on. His "arguements" consist of irrelevant, incoherent rants and accusations, and as you can see, he made no attempt to continue once his pathetic argument was torn down. By his logic anyone who downloads a rom regardless of circumstance is a thief. Even when the person he's accusing of being a thief actually owns said game, and hundreds of others. His entire argument consists of throwing up strawmen. It's a waste of time.
@Chozo85
Thanks, but I eventually gave up. @Kalmaro and his ilk are a bit of a lost cause. No point in conversing with people who will simply fall back on the legality argument when they're pushed. Not many people are arguing that, we know it's illegal. It's a pointless debate because one side will go around a track like a go kart, regardless of what the other side is saying. If people like that want to turn down the many pluses to emulation because of a single negative, that's up to them.
Basically, we have two extremes. One being the blind following of rules and laws, the other being a blanket statement of everyone being a thief. Neither are sound arguments and both are easily torn down. At the end of the day, roms are not evil, it's the intent of the downloader.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@shaneoh
It wouldn't be Crazee Rider would it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMp891Q6tY
This is the only BBC game I know of that would fit that description.
The only other one I can think of is BMX on the Moon but that's as far as I can recall. I'm an American so a lot of the UK games are a bit lost on me.
Also @Leej07, on the subject of BS games, I had a grand time playing BS Zelda on my CFW PSP. One of the many things you can't do without emulation. Also, do you recall the Sega Channel? The Wily Wars was basically preserved entirely through emulation and rom dumping, as I'm unaware of any way to obtain a physical copy of that game beyond maybe a rare reproduction cart. I had way too much fun playing Wily Wars on an emulator, and I'm doubtful I'd have got a chance to play it otherwise. (Edit: To clarify, Wily Wars was not released in the US physically, so it's not accessible to us now. The game would have died out around here. I hear it DOES have a physical release in the EU)
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Leej07
Thank you. This is all I've been saying for the last 2 hours. BS Zelda is a fantastic example too. As I've been trying to say, not ALL games got released in the US. Some got locked in Japan, some didn't get physical releases at all, etc etc etc.
None of it matters when people will dismiss that with "it's still illegal". I'm not about to sit here and waste all night trying to explain this to people.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan
Being available through Japanese VC is completely irrelevant if you don't speak Japanese. >_< Once again, this goes back to my point about patching roms. You can't patch VC, and for god's sake, VC is literally a rom. The very thing you seem to be so violently against.
I swear arguing with you is like arguing with a well-programmed robot. Sometimes I think I'm getting through to you, and sometimes I'm convinced you're not paying attention at all. No matter how many rounds we go, you just turn around and go back to the same point about how "IT'S AGAINST THE RULES!". No one cares.
I feel like I'm arguing with some kind of cultist. At this point, I'm done. For real this time. Life is too short to waste arguing with a machine. I can spend all day explaining to you the many plus sides to emulation and you will simply dismiss all of them with "it's still illegal". It's a complete waste of time.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan
As I pointed out to Jimi, I do import, but there's the issue of a language barrier, which your apparent solution is to play on clone hardware. This goes back to my original point of who are you tell people what to do? Who made you the fun police? I own the game, isn't that enough? More so, if people who download Seisen no Keifu don't have a copy, so what? They can't buy it, they can't support the devs.
The longer this goes on, the more pointless it gets. Like @roadrunner343, this is not going to lead us to some Planet of the Apes scenario. This is not an act of anarchy. It's a bunch of nerds playing old games while everyone else is playing Call of Duty.
"If you follow all the rules, you miss all the fun."
This quote applies to you, buddy. I'm not going to call you a hypocrite though, because this proves what I knew all along: That most people regardless of how moral they pretend to be, have downloaded a rom at some point in their lives. It also proves that you know deep down that roms are not evil. You're just too busy being the fun police to take the time to realize that no one cares but you.
Keep following those rules pal. You'll keep missing out on all the fun in life.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan
Way less harm as in no harm at all? I'm a collector. I own 20k worth in video games. So what if I want to emulate a game not released in my country? It hurts NO ONE. I've spent thousands on my collection. Some of the games I emulate (such as Seisen no Keifu) are games I already own anyway. I just emulate it to play in English because I get a headache from reading Japanese for too long. So what? Who are you to dictate what I do?
And if they release it again, then said person can go and buy the game legally. Simple as that. My point isn't about that, it's about the many games one cannot experience normally without emulation, importing, or spending a great deal of money. Emulation deals with ALL of these aspects of gaming. If Nintendo wants to make money on Seisen no Keifu, then translate it, put it up on VC, and let me buy it. As it stands, FE 1-6 are Japan only, as well as FE12. That's almost half the games missing from the franchise.
The simple fact is, emulation is not something that's enforced very often. The law doesn't care. Do you think anyone is going to be arrested or fined for playing a Japanese game on their PC? No. The reason users regulate it themselves is because very rarely is it even enforced to begin with. That's why people often decide for themselves if it's okay or not. Have you seen a single person in this feed say it's okay to download 3DS, Wii U, or Switch games? No, you haven't. Because at the end of the day, people often decide for themselves. It's this thing called free thinking. if you possessed it, you'd know about it.
That said, I think we should just agree to disagree. The important thing is we both agree that taking money from devs is wrong and video games should be preserved. I think that's a lot more important than arguing about legality. Neither of us is going to budge anyway, and I appreciate the fact you never once accused me of being a thief. At the very least, I think you DO recognize the difference between downloading an old NES game (such as Sweet Home) to play in English, and someone downloading Pokemon S&M. If we agree on that much, that's good enough.
@shaneoh
What game is that?
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan
"It affects others negatively".
I'd love to know how anyone was affected by someone downloading a 15-20 year old game no longer in production. How does someone discovering games they never saw in their native country "rarely matter much"? You almost had my respect, but now you've lost it again. How is that harmful?
Some of you people are so well programmed, I'm amazed you can even function. You're so brainwashed into thinking everything is so black and white that it's a little sad.
You're treating people downloading out of print, no longer produced games the same as someone downloading a copy of the latest Final Fantasy illegal, when the two have almost nothing in common beyond the fact they're committing a "crime". Being able to download a game not released in your native country, patch it, and play it in your language is not a bad thing. You're so close-minded that you're completely unable to see the MANY benefits of emulation I have outlined, despite the fact I've made them so easy to understand.
EDIT: You also didn't respond to my point about clone systems playing everything. You act as if there's clone systems that will patch PC Engine games, GBA games, Genesis games, etc. There's THOUSANDS of games out there. No clone system can play them all. Your point is moot, and you even disregarded the fact clone hardware is often shoddy. So you advocate playing on inferior hardware just because of the legality of downloading an ancient, out of print game? Good to know.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@jimi
Do you not understand how economy works? The only person who would benefit from my buying those on the sites you just mentioned would be the SELLER and not the DEVELOPER or the one LICENSING the game. To make this easy for you to understand, I'm saying Nintendo, Enix, and Quintet would not earn a single cent from that purchase.
Also did you not read what I just said? I cannot legally buy the game here, it's not FOR SALE. It never was. The game was never ported to the US.
Also if I'm a thief, then what is this?
http://i.imgur.com/JFAuK2G.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ggqJo1s.jpg
Why, those are Japanese imports! Including Tenchi Souzo, which PAL folks know as Terrranigma. So how am I thief again exactly? I'm a collector, dude. I enjoyed the games I discovered through emulation so much, I went back and bought them off Amazon and Ebay from Japan.
So please, continue to troll harder and make baseless assumptions. I've already explained to you once how it's not stealing because the devs don't earn anything from it, but you were incapable of comprehending that. Even when I later bought the games, none of the profits went to any of the people behind the game. If I could have legally bought the game and supported the devs, I would have. That was impossible however, and even more impossible now.
"You are stealing from either Enix and/or Nintendo.
You steal the PAL English version, so you are effectively stealing from both of them. Nintendo did the translation and testing. And I think Nintendo is still around."
Enix isn't even around anymore... They were bought by Square. Quintet is defunct. Anyone who could have ever made a profit is gone. >_<
@Siskan
That sounds like a personal problem. As others have stated, it's not so black and white as people make it out to be, and as I stated, no one is really arguing the legality of it. Lots of things are illegal, but people choose to pursue it anyway.
Also the key word is clone system, which still requires the downloading of the patch to work. I will concede that though, I had actually forgotten about clone systems. However, that costs money, which doesn't go to the developer anyway, so there's absolutely no reason not to download the rom unless you are just 100% against doing so. Which in all honesty, is completely fair. At the same time however, you should respect the fact that some people choose to play on an emulator. I myself have emulated games I already own. Is it still illegal? Yes. As far as i know. Do I care? No. I'm not letting a small thing like that detract me from something that has been of benefit to countless gamers, including introducing them to games they may not have known about.
I still think we're basically on the same side of the argument though. We just don't agree on the legality aspect. I won't try to change your mind on it. When it comes to emulation, it often falls on the user, which is why I said roms are not evil. Its how people use them.
EDIT: On the subject of clone systems, I'm also fairly certain no clone system plays everything nor patches everything. For example, if I want to play a Japanese GBA game with an English patch, what clone system would I buy? I'm not even aware of a clone system for GBA that also supports patches. So the existence of clone hardware (which is often shoddy and unreliable) isn't a good solution.
An ideal solution would obviously be playing my original copies on original hardware with patches, but that's impossible right now.
@roadrunner343
Thanks, it's nice to have a voice of reason on the matter. Jimi seems to be under the impression I'm condoning the downloading of games still in production when I have made it quite clear I'm not. If I know a download takes away from a dev, I won't do it. Simple as that.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@jimi
As I said above, go look up what "Stealing" means and then come back to the conversation. You have 0 argument and quite frankly sound like a complete fool. I'm hoping that you're just a troll.
The company who made Terranigma lost 0 profit from me downloading a rom which I cannot legally buy in the first place. Assume for one moment I did buy an actual PAL SNES and the game... How does that benefit Enix, Quintet, or Nintendo? They wouldn't gain a cent from it. Terranigma at that point was no longer sold in stores, SNES was discontinued, and Quintet went dark and is presumed defunct.
You can't possibly be as dense as you're making yourself out to be.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@jimi
Read my above post and learn how to post one time, rather than spam the feed with your nonsense. Your entire rant was already addressed and is completely irrelevant to anything I said. You're going off on a rant about paying for things when I already stated above that taking profit away from developers is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged. Learn reading comprehension.
EDIT: Because I'm a nice guy, I will even quote what I said directly to spare you the agony of having to do it yourself.
"As a disclaimer though, I am very much against people using such things to download and play modern games so they can circumvent having to buy it. That's not cool, and that is the unfortunate dark side to emulation. One I'm not denying exists."
You're welcome.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Kalmaro
That would be great in an ideal world, but we don't live in an ideal world. Not only would they have to open up their entire library (which would be amazing), but they would have to open up the library for every game made before 2005 pretty much, otherwise emulation and roms will continue to live strong.
@jimi
And here we have someone who clearly didn't take the time to read my posts at all, or he'd otherwise know why his response is total nonsense. We're not talking just Nintendo, and even if we are, you're completely ignoring the fact the two games I mentioned above (Seiken Densetsu 3 and Seisen no Keifu) are to this day, not released outside of Japan. Both games are translated (one fully, one partially) so not only can you download them, but enjoy them in English which is my native tongue. There also exists Chinese, Russian, etc patches of games that English speakers may take for granted.
More importantly, I'm talking in terms of about 10 years ago. 10 years ago, having to buy a PAL SNES and the game would not only have been expensive, but difficult to do. And for what purpose? To play a game I can take 10 seconds to download at NO COST TO THE ORIGINAL DEVS? Yeah, brilliant argument. Way to disregard my whole point.
Also who is it stealing from? The original team behind Terranigma isn't even around anymore. Your argument is by FAR the worst one presented here thus far. You fail. Utterly. Go learn what stealing means, then come back and make another attempt at arguing intelligently.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan
I plainly explained why your argument is flimsy. Because one group is doing something, doesn't mean another group shouldn't. The archiving of video games in the form of rom dumping has been going on for a long, long time. As I said, I could just as easily argue Sweden and Europe don't have to do it because it's already done. I'm not making that argument because I think that's pretty great. You on the other hand plainly stated the following:
"There are already game preservation organizations in many countries which preserve these legally. And they dump the games on their own."
"And my point is that there's no point in viewing it as preservation whether that's the intention or not, as they will be preserved anyway."
That's completely ridiculous. I don't know how long Sweden has been doing this, but chances are rom dumping existed online long before Sweden and Europe started. If that wasn't the point you're trying to convey, then I guess I misunderstood.
Also, I highly doubt it's possible to play games like Seiken Densetsu 3, Seisen no Keifu, etc in English without patching a rom. If you have some other means of playing those games in English, then do please enlighten me. Even if it's somehow possible, it doesn't change the fact that at one point this was the ONLY way to play unreleased Japanese games in English. I'm 99.9% sure it still is. I'd be amazed to hear this other method you seem to have.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Kalmaro
That's cool, we can agree to disagree. I just wish you'd open your mind a bit. Roms are not evil, dude. Some of my favorite games were discovered through emulation. Not only does it preserve, but it allows us to discover things outside our worlds.
Case in point, Terranigma never came to the US. It was released as Tenchi Souzo in Japan and Terranigma in the PAL format. Despite being fully translated, US players cannot access it easily. Even pulling the prongs out of the system cannot allow a game in the PAL format to work on a North American SNES. I discovered this beautiful game through emulation and it became one of my all time favorites. Had I not accessed emulation, I'd probably still be ignorant to it. I'd say that's a shame, and more insulting the devs than the fact I downloaded it online. I imagine If I could speak with the devs, they wouldn't care one bit that I illegally downloaded a game they no longer make a profit from. They'd probably be happy to hear how much I enjoyed it.
This is true for many, many franchises and games locked in other countries. I'm sorry you can't see that through your tiny bubble and inability to look past legality. I wish you well.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@subpopz
Right on. Roms and Emulation are important parts of gaming culture, always have been.
@Kalmaro
At this point, you're just mindlessly white knighting and not bothering to respond to my points, so I'm not going to try and reason with you any further. You're far too cemented in your bubble and I'm not going to waste time trying to penetrate it when you can't bother to respond to a person's points. You literally glossed over everything I said and responded with what may as well be some kind of machine-processed response. Clearly you're well programmed. Multiple people have tried to get through to you and you're just repeating yourself. You respond to each point with "but it's still illegal!' which no one is even trying to deny.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan
I'm fine with what Sweden is doing and I commend that, but you're still missing my point. As stated in my post, many games were never released, never released outside of a specific country, etc.. What Sweden is doing is well and good, and nowhere in my post did I argue that it's a human right to be able to play an old game. My point is that emulation and rom dumping preserves games and allows the current generation and future generations to play and enjoy games that are no longer drawing income for the developers. If your whole argument is "Well, Sweden is preserving these games so you shouldn't worry about it.", then not only is that flimsy, but completely ridiculous. Not everyone lives in Sweden. Not everyone lives in Europe. Roms and emulation allow people all over the world to enjoy games they may not have access to. Ask anyone living in Brazil for example. The ability to freely download and play a game from 1980, Japan, etc and play it, or enjoy it in your own native tongue is a beautiful thing, and many people owe their fandom to this simple ability.
You want to argue human rights? No one has a right to play any game, period. Gaming by nature is a luxury. You really have no argument, and if anything, it sounds like we're on the same side of this discussion anyway.
Put simply? You're saying because Sweden is preserving these games, no one else has to. That's an utterly ridiculous argument. That's like me saying because I'm a collector, no one else has to collect games. I'm doing it. No one else has to. There's more than one way to preserve games. There is no single best means. I'm not sure how long Sweden has been archiving these, but this has been going on in the cyberworld for about 20 years. I could just as easily argue that there's no need for Sweden to it when thousands of games already exist in rom form. It would be a ridiculous argument for me to make, and it's a ridiculous one for you to make.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@TTgowings
This is also an excellent point. Just look at the Dreamcast, which owes itself to the homebrew community that started after Sega ceased production and support. This also happens with Xbox, Wii, and PSP just to name a few. Years after the original makers have discontinued support, homebrewers breathe new life into these systems. I myself enjoy a custom firmwared, softmodded PSP which I use to play Japanese roms patched into English. Before Fire Emblem was mainstream, the ONLY way to play the games in English was to download a rom and patch it. This is all done with no profit at all taken from Nintendo or Intelligent Systems. As an FE fan growing up in the early 2000's, I owe my fandom to emulation. I would have never got to experience HALF the games without it.
As a disclaimer though, I am very much against people using such things to download and play modern games so they can circumvent having to buy it. That's not cool, and that is the unfortunate dark side to emulation. One I'm not denying exists.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan
And playable by whom? The point of it all is being able to preserve and play. The act of preserving a game does no one any good if it's not easily accessible to the public.
Or you could try simply reading my above post on the merits of roms. There are MANY ups to ROMs and very few downs.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Siskan @Kalmaro
Not exactly the same circumstances. ROMs are not the same as stealing and people have been doing this since video games existed. The act of making a digital dump of a game is an old practice and one people will continue to do.
Obviously, no one dumps a rom with the purpose of preserving it and that was never my argument to begin with. I'm simply saying that a more positive outlook is to view the roms as preservation. At no point did I ague that dumpers are saviors of the video game kingdom building an Ark of video game data. I simply said that the roms themselves are a digital preservation of video games. Anyone with the slightest tech saavy can access a rom and play it.
Also, roms are the ONLY way to play some games. Not everything had a physical release. This applies to Japanese games as well, which can be downloaded and patched by English speakers to enjoy in their own native tongue.
Put simply, there is nothing evil about roms, only the intent behind the downloader. Downloading new games that are still being counted as a profit towards the developer is bad, no one here is denying that. 20+ year old games are a different story. Arguing otherwise is simply white knighting and arguing for the sake of arguing.
Re: Flash Carts Could Be Slowly Killing Your Retro Consoles
@Kalmaro
Roms preserve these games though. if you look at rom dumping as a preservation act, they become a lot less sinister. I''m not a fan of flashcarts myself but the roms themselves are not evil, they're a preservation of the past.
That said, you may be right about Nintendolife being so forward with flashcarts.